All this over a triangle?
January 23rd, 2007 by dinahIt’s another poll. And this one is a silly debate that xamount and I have been having all day. I tend to think it’s a boy-girl thing (which probably means I’ll lose, since most of you, our loyal readers, are of the boy type).
Anyway, today the question is: When are dates ascending?
Things to think about
- Is a recent date smaller than one further in the past?
- Or, is a date simply a number, where 2005 is less than 2006?
- All dates in question are in the past.
Once again, please give us your opinions and comments (although we know there’s not as much to say about this).
How do dates ascend?
January 23rd, 2007 at 11:51 pm
Ascending goes from smallest to largest, so the 22 should come above the 23. This happens to be how Microsoft Office does it, although that in itself doesn’t mean it’s the best way to do it.
(You two probably already know this, but indulge me for thinking out loud:)
It’s also interesting to think which should be set to default (newest on top or bottom). Lists used to start with the newest on the bottom; The most recent item I add to my grocery list is last on the list (most instant messengers work this way). But with some chat rooms and most blogs, more and more lists start with the newest data. I suppose it depends on how much screen space you have. You’d want the newest information “above the fold.”
January 24th, 2007 at 12:34 pm
If you think of the date as a representation of a counter (yes, I’m a software engineer
then older “dates” are smaller values on the timeline, and the issue quickly resolves itself. That date is just a point on the timeline that “normal” humans can better comprehend. Putting 4/1/2007 on your check is much easier than 3849234957123489234 sec.
… Yes, I made that number up, I’m too lazy to calculate it right now.
G
January 24th, 2007 at 5:08 pm
Okay. I think we can all agree on two things here. That ascending dates (in general) are oldest to newest. And that the most important thing when sorting (this list in particular) is that the newest date be on top. So, for dates, we’ll default to DESCENDING order. Thanks everybody.
This was an interesting poll, because of how many voted against what is the defacto standard of oldest first being ascending. Frankly, I think sorting oldest first as ascending is a MALE thing, or at least an “easy for programmers to do” thing. They’re just numbers after all. (Whereas women tend to think more holistically and in the present, so that the DELTA between today and ‘the date’ is the value that ascends [xamount says he is so MALE he hardly understands what I mean.
])
January 24th, 2007 at 5:52 pm
Sooo…. Logic and Sanity trumps Touchy-Feely absurdity once again!!
Just kidding Dinah! I did consider your perspective when I voted and wrote my response, but then my head started to hurt, my eyes got blurry and I felt a little sick to my stomach. Once I SIMPLY started counting upwards again I felt better and I was able to function normally
Your reasoning (I could hardly call it logic
) is exactly what my wife would come up with if I were to ask her this question.
G
January 24th, 2007 at 6:08 pm
Oh me, that made me smile. (Laugh, actually) Thank you!
Oh! I just read a great article about making smiles. Head over to “Creating Passionate Users” (one of my most favorite blogs) and read: http://headrush.typepad.com/creating_passionate_users/2007/01/whod_you_make_s.html
January 24th, 2007 at 6:13 pm
There are more seconds now then there have been in the past, so I feel that option two is correct.
I also want to add that regardless of the decision, the newest should always be on top as a default on a list.
January 24th, 2007 at 6:58 pm
Now you made me smile. Actually, I first smiled when I saw that I made you smile. Sometimes my attempts at humor don’t always go over so well, or are too obscure to understand. I’ve been able to tell that you’ve got a pretty good sense of humor, so I thought I was reasonably safe. I’m pleased that I was able to brighten your day just a bit.
That’s a great article by the way, I’m going to have to read more stuff over there. I especially liked the comments about adding that little something to your UI just to make it more friendly. I’ve mentioned to you “other” places that I do Windows GUI work also. But my apps, which are usually engineering and test apps for an aerospace company, getting creative, much less friendly, can be hard. I still try to do it. I’ve even been known to put Easter Eggs into apps that only one or two people other than me may ever see, just in case. Of course, I tend to make myself smile when I trigger them just for fun.
Speaking of Easter Eggs… … how about a hint!
G
January 26th, 2007 at 4:16 am
Ignoring what “ascending” means, though: What does that little triangle mean to you? That’s the way I voted.
A little up-pointing triangle indicates to me that the dates are advancing as I go up the list. That actually means they’re sorted descending…
January 26th, 2007 at 8:16 am
The direction of the triangle always matches the order of the list, so that the small end matches the smallest list value. If you were alphabetizing a list, an ascending list would start with A, right? And the triangle would have the small pointy end on top.
On the other hand, I suppose you could question whether the list begins at the top or the bottom. If you were moving horizontally (and you lived in a western culture), you’d always ascend from left to right…
Scrolling up and down with numbers displayed in a vertical list comes with built in confusion. Think about your tv’s remote control. If you’re navigating directly through the channels, you hit the ^ (up) button to get to a channel with a larger number. But, if you’re navigating through the channels in your on-screen menu, the ^ actually scrolls higher visually in the list, but it goes to a lower numerical value.
Add to that the fact that dates aren’t really simple numbers - they carry additional meaning. Since all the dates we display are in the past, the most recent date is *smaller relative to today* than one whose value is numerically smaller. (ABS(today - date))
Anyway, if we were to display the dates as “5 days ago” rather than the actual date, ascending would match what we currently have. The triangle would point up and the *numbers* in the list would get larger as you went lower in the list (although the dates would be getting smaller).
Darn triangle.
February 17th, 2007 at 6:35 pm
okee….jumping in here way late because my workload has sucked massively, but if you reference (virtually any calendar program) ascending order by date means oldest first. it also works that way for message sorting on (virtually any online forum software). even if you display the reference as “x” days ago.
February 17th, 2007 at 6:43 pm
okay, okay!
February 17th, 2007 at 7:12 pm
o….c’mon. you know i have great respect for all that you do. there’s just not much going on over at ‘teh udder forum’, so i thought i’d try to catch up over here.
in other forms of avoidance, i am playing virtually simultaneously with Corel Painter X and a Lensbaby 3G ~ instead of trying to choose 1 photo out of 5,600 to share with our Convention and Visitors Bureau on behalf of our local semi-pro soccer team. i hate playing editor.